Gareth McGlynn: RohanJawali. Welcome to thePreconstruction Podcast.
Rohan Jawali: Thanksfor having me. I appreciate it.
Gareth: Wonderful.You’reon the West Coast so thanks for getting up early and making yourself available.
Rohan: Not aproblem. We know all our constructions guys, you know. They’reso-- we start early.
Gareth: That’sright.
Rohan: That’sthe morning, right?
Gareth: Yeah. You probably havehalf-a-day’swork done at this stage, have you?
Rohan: Pretty--pretty much. Pretty much. It’s super productive in the mornings.
Gareth: That’sit, you know. I’m the same. I get all my work done early in themorning. Well, listen. Let’s jump straight into it. Because your background isfascinating. Thank you for reaching out to us. Obviously, you saw about the contentonline. Put yourself forward which I always like because there is not enoughpeople that are putting themselves forward especially in critical positionslike yourself, what you’re doing over at Hensel Phelps. So, the more obviously you can help the audience,the more the faster, we can move forward with anything. And so just before wecrack into the meaty parts, give us an idea of your career. Twelve years, sevenmonths with Hensel Phelps, what's it been like?
Rohan: It's been amazing, I'll tell you that. Like Isaid, I mean, we I've been with hensel Phelps for over 12 years and I workedpretty much through all the market sectors, different types of building, different types ofcomplexities on the project. I started back in 2009 on a GSA project here inSan Diego, the federal courthouse, as a BIM coordinator. I was one of the firstBIM coordinator hires for Hensel Phelps back in time. And that's where this wholeBIM moment started, right. Once we finished the BIM coordination, I essentiallymove on to the traditional path, you know, helped out in the office, help outin the field. And then a couple years in, I essentially transitioned over toour regional role helping out with a lot of procurement, marketing efforts, andVDC activities across the board. One of the things that we did back at [indiscernible] house was, the iPad has recently launched. So I ended upgoing out and bought the iPad for my first expense and then we ended upconvincing our team that this is the way to go. And we ended up scaling outfrom there, scaling up from there, regionally, right? Well, our [indiscernible] was pretty hot back then. So there was a lot of success on using thosedevices. But through marketing, I worked on a lot of procurement in the regionacross the nation actually and then came back to operations on a hospital jobhere in San Diego, a giant healthcare medical center in central San Diego. Andthat was an amazing experience for me as well. I spent about three yearsworking on [indiscernible], which now is [indiscernible]. A pretty innovative team, pretty big team. Weuse them really, really heavily across the board. And that's where the wholemoment of, you know, the BIM started on my mind, like, let's go back to BIM andVDC, and I transitioned back into the VDC role. In the past year or so, I'vebeen working as Director of Innovation, as a side work with Hensel Phelps aswell.
Gareth: Brilliant, brilliant. Just to drag you back,this what I love about the podcast, I just pivot and just kind of-- I hearsomething and I go, “Let's dive into that one.” The healthcare project is three years, I mean,that-- to be able to sit on a project like that, as a BIM guy, or VDC guy runningthrough it for three years, there must have been huge lessons learned in that,what was the big takeaway?
Rohan: It was a fantastic experience. The biggesttakeaway was, you know, you have to have a good team around you as well. Wehave to know good people, you have to build relationships, and you have toplan. At the end of the day, you think about construction as an organizedchaos. You're, you know, becoming a master of organizing chaos as you spend dayin day out. On the on the project. I mean, there were so many different models,there were so many updates happening on a daily basis, new design changes. Soreally, it took me a while at least, you know, a month to get in and set myselfunderstand what's happening. And once, you know, I got my bearings together andstarted talking to people, it really came together. But if I were to [indiscernible] today, I mean, it's about people at the end of the day having their relationshipsmatter.
Gareth: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you mentionedthere, just speaking to people, communication is vital so that everyoneunderstands. Because it's impossible to get everyone on the same page and thesame level of understanding because we've all got different backgrounds.Somebody's coming out from a VDC background, someone's coming out ofprocurement, estimating preconstruction, operations side, and everyone's gotthat little bit of nugget of knowledge that will help everyone else.
Rohan: Absolutely. It was-- I mean back in time, wecould get together in person to write. We have our BIM team together, a huge BIM teamon site. There are owners and owners reps and design team and engineers, andour team together in one office. And that was a huge benefit for us because wecould literally walk to people and have a conversation about, “Hey, we are seeing this issue. How do we go aboutit?” And ,you know, you go from there, but havingpeople around you was a huge help and for me, if someone like me was new inthat role, new on a particular product type, it was even better because I couldlearn at a faster pace. I was drinking from the fire hose, but I was at sametime learning at a pretty high rate.
Gareth: Brilliant. And, Rohan, I love that. I thinkthe whole idea of like throwing someone into like a smaller project, you justput them into a large project. And that's, that's how you learn. That's theonly way to learn and you learn from other people. And just on that, was thaton 3D, 4D?
Rohan: We did 3D, 4D, and 5D as well and, in somecapacity, 6D. You know, how people define 6D is really different, but, youknow, some [indiscernible] as well.
Gareth: Brilliant, love it. So, lots of learning, andthen you just didn't stick with one. Yeah.
Rohan: Absolutely. And before that, I mean, my focusmore was about, you know, 3D and 4D but I ended up getting into those differentdomains as well and learning from like I said, fire hose on the fly.
Gareth: Brilliant. Good, good. Well, that's, I mean,obviously, it's now-- it's now helped you to where you're at. I would imaginethat was a pivotal-- pivotal moment in your career.
Rohan: Absolutely. I mean, being on a project ofsuch complexity with such a good team and with people helped me a lot. Now,it's-- the way I look at it is, you know, the BIM slows down for you. Thebusiness slows down for you as you grow older in your career. And once you gothrough those, you know, bigger projects with, you know, high velocity themes,next time you start a project, you know what to expect. You know how to tacklethe situations. You know where to start and get started from that point, and itbecomes more organized and more planned as you go. Because, again, processesthat are a bunch of processes, bunch of tools, there is chaos but then havingthe experience to manage upfront and see visually understand what's coming,helps you manage the chaos quite phenomenally well.
Gareth: Yeah. And that comes to my next question isthat the important, as you mentioned before, the importance of planning and theimportance of preconstruction. How important is that, because I see a hugeshift in companies focusing on what, I mean, traditional construction is. Justget the drawings from the architect, put it put a price on it, and we'll buildit when we get the operations. But that's completely changing. How have youseen it evolve throughout your career?
Rohan: I think preconstruction is getting more andmore predominant, right? I mean, everybody is building buildings virtually, oryou know, on computers first, before we set foot on the ground. By that what Imean is, you're essentially doing pretty much everything that you do in thefield before you actually break the ground, right? And BIM is becoming a hugepart of it by default because it accelerates the process for us. It makes itreally better and collaborative across the board. And, really, I mean, like Imentioned, we're producing fabrication level models before we send drawings topermit. And that actually is a really, really intense process in the grandscheme of things. Because you really have to have a good plan as a team to endup at that position to submit those [indiscernible] of details to permit. That involves, you know, quick decision making, of course, which isnumber one, collaboration at the grand scheme of things, transparency acrossthe board as a team, and then trust. And high functioning team always havethose components, regardless between owners, between engineers and architectsand contractors.
Gareth: Yeah, brilliant. And you mentioned, thealmost perfect digital fabrication. I mean, how close are we to getting gettingto that? We're building models that are almost exactly what we want in 5D, andwe'll go into 6D in a little bit.
Rohan: I think we're closer than any, like, everbecause the models are getting detailed and detailed across the board. I mean,at least in California, I've seen trades, you know, produce such a high levelof detail in their models. It's amazing. Like, you know, can you model that inthe past 10 years? Ten years ago we couldn't have imagined that. But now you doso and a lot of trades are fabricating off the model as well as a defaultservice. So I think, from prefab perspective, I feel like we're getting prettyclose as well, because now you're developing model and you're creatingassemblies in the model as well, that will translate into assemblies downstreamas well.
Gareth: Brilliant. And is this working with thearchitects? You mentioned the subcontractors are doing there in relation to themodel. Is the architect getting involved? Do they get involved? Is thearchitect building models? Are they building information that you can use?
Rohan: Yeah. So, the design team is hands on atleast one healthcare job that I worked on in the BIM process from the get go.What we're trying-- we're starting to do is to involve trade partners,subcontractors very, very early in the process. So they are actually workinghand in hand with the engineers. Sometimes, oftentimes, they are actuallyworking the same model, which is again requires a lot of trust, because now youhave another, you know, trade working designers model. How is that gonna work?Right? Because we're trying to submit those drawings to permits. But again,it's a lot of planning upfront, it's a lot of trust building exercises to makesure that the process is there and we're following the process from day oneuntil we submit.
Gareth: Brilliant, love it. And you mentioned before,just before we started recording there, the one good thing coming out of COVID and everything thatwe've gone through working from home and working, working remotely, it's it'sbeen difficult, there's been challenges, but also it's kind of, it's honed down onour process. It's allowed us to get tighter with our process,it's allowed us to get better and working together. Give me an idea of what yousaw, especially in Hensel Phelps? How has it improved you guys?
Rohan: You know, honestly, you set it right. I mean, theprocess has just gotten better, because now we are collaborating at a reallyhigh efficiency. If you think about remote teams, I mean, five years ago if you are somebody like ten construction companies have remote teams inaction and the answer would have been no or maybe. But now ifthe answer is yes, why not? Yes, we have we have done it. So you think from a remoteperspective, I think the processes and the tools have gotten better in last two years. I mean, someonesaid it previously, like you know, sometimes it takes decades to do something,sometimes it takes a week to happen a decade or somewhere along that same line. But thetech has evolved atsuch a fast rate that it's been amazing because you look at Microsoft Teams, orZoom and so on.People are getting together across the country to do meetings and talk aboutissues that we're coming across, we are having field walks with people from NewYork. So that entire approach has changed.
Gareth: Brilliant, and what what you mentioned there, thetech that has improved so much in relation to BIM VDC. What has made it possible, like what is thetechnology that you are leaning heavily on?
Rohan: I mean, you think about, you know, the cloudsolutions, like you know, BIM 360, for example, and there are, you know, othervendors in the same space as well. They really allowed us to collaborate prettyefficiently between different trades, different companies. Now, you think aboutthe process I mentioned before, like, you know, having trade partners andsubcontractors in designers model. It could have been pretty hard 10 years ago, butnow it's pretty easy, because BIM 360 has changed the game, or, you know, solutionslike that are changing the game for us with collaboration. Having tools likethat, with, you know, coupled up with collaboration, likeremote meeting tools, it's actually helping us accelerate conversation anddialogue across the board.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it. And is there any tools thatare coming out that's getting you really excited? Any new--
Rohan: I mean--
Gareth: -- that you're seeing around? Any newfunctionality of BIM 365?
Rohan: Autodesk is doing a fantastic job in this space.But again, there are a bunch of VR/AR startups that are doing a phenomenal job aswell, allowing us to collaborate in, you know, all different worlds. So I think thatpart of the business is going to get even more exciting as we progress forward.
Gareth: Yeah. And, Rohan, is there any isthere any chance of us moving too fast when it comes to BIM, because BIM has been aroundfor a long time, and even in another format previously, but are we moving toofast now because, well obviously, everyone, kind of, is always talking about the construction industryis moving too slow, has not been innovative enough? But COVID, I mean, definitely has expedited a lot of other things inpreconstruction and estimating. What about BIM and VDC?
Rohan: I think we are still slow.
Gareth: Yeah.
Rohan: We have room to be faster for sure. But if youthink about the pace, and you know, the collaboration and adoption, in general,it really depends on what region you're in. Right? that I've seen coast to coast is the processes andpeople are [indiscernible] advance, and then everybody else kind of follows them,right? But in a grand scheme of things, I think we'llget more faster. I mean, generative design is coming in, there's a lot of AIcoming in. So you'll see, you know, the process getting much faster because for OSH Park, for example, itwould take years in the past for people submit to permit drawings, and now we'regoing less than two years, for example, in some cases. So it's, again, going much, much faster in the grandscheme of things, and it's only going to get faster.
Gareth: Brilliant. I love it. I hope you're right. Andlet's let's go back to 5D and 6D. Tell us how the costs, how detailed these 5D models are andwhat improvements can we make with that?
Rohan: So it's not really a subjective topic, right? I mean, 5D has been around for a while, and you think about5D it's kind ofgetting blurred between different processes. For example, a lot of tech companies are coming inwith, you know, production tracking and progress tracking and they're, youknow, showing the earned value and the cost matrix there, too. And, some people areconfusing that with 5D. So, what I was trying to do in a 5D you break 5D into parts. One is 5D cost estimation, which is typically what shouldbe and then you have 5D cost verification that happens downstream onceyou start construction. From 5D cost estimation perspective, I feel like we are the [inaudible] because when you think about 5D, you need to really set the process upfront whereyou're setting the expectation with the team on what level of detail you wantto model, what you know, objects you're modeling and what parameters you'reassociating. Sometimes it becomes really hard to go in a level of detail thatyou want on certain trade partners because they might have certain things onthe back end differently. So again, from 5D perspective, Ithink we're pretty close on quantity, takeoff level using them but there is stillsome gap that we need to fill in. And, I think tech is going to be helpful to fill thatgap because the way Iexplained it typically is you think about a typical way ofestimating. You're starting at a higher level of detail on dayone, but from BIM, you're starting at zero. BIM catches up pretty fast, but then, you still havethat gap between traditional estimating and BIM level of detail and that gap needs tobe filled in with, you know, something that doesn't exist right now.
Gareth: [Chuckles] I was gonna ask you, that was my next question. What does that looklike? Is that historical data? Is that--
Rohan: That absolutely is a historical data that, youknow, can be used to predict the things to fill up the gap. And I know [indiscernible] is doing some really good work right now to you know, use the data to, youknow, help you make decisions, and that product is coming along together reallywell. And there are other players in their same space that are trying to solvethe same problem to help out on the estimating side. But again, it will be aprocess. It will be a learning curve for everybody to arriveat a certain point. And I think industry is going to get there at some pointpretty quick, sooner than we realize. I keep on telling 10 years, but it'sgonna happen quite faster than 10 years.
Gareth: Yeah, I think so as well, you're right. You mentioned joining there. There's quite a few of them that are working on us and it's almost like-- it's like the rest of the linewho's going to get there first. Because if you think about it now, and you cankind of guide me on this, if you've got VDC working really hard with it, you'vegot the precon and estimating site and almost like you're doublehandling, like you're doing two things were really one thing should be, or a jointeffort should be quicker, faster, less labor intensive.
Rohan: Absolutely. I've seen our estimators pick up theBIM part pretty heavily in past few years, things like assemble have changed,how estimators are consuming information from the BIM side on a day-to-day basis. And, youknow, the integration with other partners is, you know, doing that prettyquickly, too.
Gareth: Brilliant, good. Yeah, the integration is going to be crucial. And then 6D modeling, and wetouched on it, you said, it's kind of a little bit fuzzy at the moment. What's your idea of6D model?
Rohan : It should basically be a data twin in somecapacity, right? But what I've seen is, you know, it goes back toa good plan from day one, having 6D handover in mind on day one is criticallyimportant to really actually make it happen. We have had some projects where,you know, we have delivered COBie data set towards the end. The first one Itried, I had to basically, you know, rush into creating the data sets towards theend, because we didn't plan for it. Now we are, you know, getting informationfrom all the trade partners to fill into that spreadsheet and fill into anexport, you know, export data from the model and fill up the spreadsheet againand again to deliver to the client. But then next time, it got easier becauseyou could plan from day one. I think COBie is, of course, a critical piece of 6D puzzle. It's goingto help us deliver that information down the line. But again, there are goodproducts coming from the market, the start-up ecosystem as well. There are going to be game changers in the grandscheme of things because they're allowing us to build a data set on the goassociating with the BIM, associating us with the trade partners. Havingthem input the information on the go, is going to be huge for us.
Gareth: Brilliant. Just out of curiosity, who's working onthat? Who are the trade partners of the products that are doing this?
Rohan: I mean, in a progress tracking perspective, a lot of companiesare doing that, right? I mean, I've seen some, you know, even 5D companies try to,you know, hold the data and or allow us to add more data to the model as well.
Gareth: Good, good. Yeah, that would be exciting. Veryexciting. Because it's an ever changing-- it's an ever changing landscape. So to be able toadd to it whenever-- whenever you need to that would be-- it would be niceand we keep keep everyone updated.
Rohan: Exactly.
Gareth: Yeah, almost in real time. I like it. I’m excited. Cool. Andthen what about Hensel Phelps? Without giving away any secrets, what does your tech stacklook like and what are you using right now?
Rohan: It all depends on the region and the owner that you're working with, right? Because some owners have their own systemsthat they want us to use. But typically, I think who are BIM, in general, we're,of course, Autodesk heavy right now. We are also using a lot of Techla, and, you know, innate software to help us tomodel all [indiscernible]. But the healthcare customers that I'm working onhere in the Southern California side, they're pretty much [indiscernible] heavy on BIM side.
Gareth: Good.
Rohan: But then you also have, you know, things likeassemble for 5D, which is, of course, an Autodesk product, youknow, stuff like you have a sage on the other side as well that’s helping us, youknow, do estimating and do data integrations as well.
Gareth: Good, good. Yeah, it's getting-- it's getting thefull suite of something to be able to talk to one another. It is going to bequite difficult as well. But as you say, the integrations and the plugins aregetting-- are getting much bigger. But something exciting thatyou mentioned, as well as the innovations team that the Hensel Phelps areputting together, I know that you're a big part of that, how will that help streamline technology anddecisions within technology?
Rohan: You think about the innovation side and the techmovement in the industry in past few years, the startup scene is phenomenallydynamic right now. There are a lot of companies that are trying toemerge from scratch more and really start building the product and theentrepreneurs that are trying to build the product, sometimes they are from the industry. And most ofthe time, they're not from the industry. So in my opinion, the innovation teamsis a good thing that's happening in the industry right now because that's goingto help the ecosystem, the startup ecosystem outside looking in, as well asinside looking out. I mean, the industry has a lot of innovators andentrepreneurs within the industry. And for them to really go out try new thingson their projects, because we think about a project for a construction companyis almost like a company or a start up within the company, right. And a lot ofprojects are starting as they start, they're trying new products, new software, newtools, new processes, to deliver things better. So from both sides, theinnovation groups are really acting as a catalyst. They're helping out theecosystem externally to achieve that product market [indiscernible], give them the pilot, give them the feedback fromactual customers. And internally, we're helping them find the new tools, findthe new companies that are actually doing really amazing stuff outside andbridge that gap where the learnings are a path from eachother. If that makes sense.
Gareth: No, that's really--
Rohan: [Cross talk] high level, but then the innovation team are really, youknow, they have to do a lot of groundwork to get there.
Gareth: Maintain a hundred percent. But I a hundred percent agree. This is the only way that we can get to a spacewhere we can do things faster and we can expedite expedite the preconstructionprocess if we talk and share learnings. I mean, there's abig thing about sharing data and stuff now, we will get there. But at the end of the day,everyone should be should be sharing their wins or successes. What makes makesus build schools, houses, hospitals quicker and faster. Because there willbe I mean, COVID obviously hasn't helped because there was a lot of delays anda lot of different fluctuating prices. So there's a massive backlog that needsto be looked after and I think technology can help us with that.
Rohan: Well, absolutely. Tech has a huge part to play aswe move forward in the future for sure. And a lot of you know companies are onit right now.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it. Love it. And just San Diego,obviously California beautiful part of the world, tell us a little bit about it. I know that you may know we relocate a lot of estimators, precon folks, and VDC folks allover the US. What’s San Diego like? What's it like to live there all year round?
Rohan: I try pretty hard not to brag about it. It’s [cross talk]. But, no. San Diego is a phenomenal place to, you know, startthe career, start the family and grow the family [indiscernible]. It's such a big citywith a small city feeling with the beach. Just the way I explained. But surprisingly thecommunity here in San Diego for industry is pretty awesome as well as there aresmaller groups that are working together for a meeting as well. And the startupecosystem in San Diego is pretty dynamic as well. There are a few companiesthat came out of San Diego like you know RECON, Fuzor. There was another company that Autodesk acquired.I'm kind of [indiscernible] space right now but a few startups that are working in the space aswell that are based out of San Diego, and there is a lot of talent in the inthe region, for sure. But it's phenomenal. I can't complain.
Gareth: What are you doing when you're not VDC and BIM [indiscernible]?
Rohan: I'm a hiker.
Gareth: Good.
Rohan: I like to go run on the trails for sure. If I'mnot hiking or running, or spending time with the family, I'm taking pictures. Ido a lot of landscape photography, abstract photography, you know, take videos.So that's my hobby. I go on some photography trips around as well if I can find time, but it's getting harder with the kids growing up fast.
Gareth: [Chuckles] Yeah. And the kids keep you on your toes, I'm sure.
Rohan: Yeah. 24/7. And the generation is just getting smarter andsmarter. So they're learning so fast that it's amazing. To see the growth.
Gareth: Yeah, they’re learning fast andthey're teaching us even more. That's, that's the key. So, just one thing Ilike asking people just before you head on, if you think about your career, andwe talked about it before, you're advancing quite fast through the ranks atHensel Phelps. What do you put that down to? Was there any onespecific thing and what sort of advice would you give a graduate?
Rohan: I'm gonna pass on the same advice I got when Istarted into Phelps. Again, fundamentally, it's about people and that's rule numberone. But number two, that my mentor at Hensel Phelps advised me when I started at Hensel Phelps, and he's still my mentor, right? So it's pretty applicable is, “Rohan, don't look at the software or the tools. Don’t think about theprocess. Always go after the process first, learn theprocess, and then go after the tools. And that has helped me phenomenally andtremendously up to this point. The shiny objects are there but don't worryabout the shiny objects. Understand the concept fundamentally first, thatallows you to go pick that shiny object really well. So I still, you know,stick to that principle.
Gareth: Rohan, that's great advice. I know we touched on earlier,but that's why I think that COVID and everything that happens through through a COVIDis probably going to-- people are going to look back in 10 or 15 years,and pinpoint that time is the time that was probably most important when it comes toinnovation within construction. Because any startup to precon tech, estimating tech or even operations tech company that I speakto, they have seen huge amount of growth within that time frame, and since, they've come out of that time frame. So, I think people are willing to spend time lookinginto technology, and finding out how you can kind of coordinate and matchtechnology with tight talent to be able to do everything faster.
Rohan: Absolutely. I already think about it, like I mentioned, right? I mean,I think these two years or three years, the industry has grown by decades. Typically, our industry isnot the one that picks up tech quickly, but now everybody has picked up and touched tech, in some sense or more sense, right? So the adoption is there. The acceptance is there. Adoption is there, right? So I feel like we arejust going to go much, much faster as the time comes.
Gareth: Brilliant. And again, if you have C-Suite owners, likethese people in senior positions that are willing to, kind of, obviously hand over a few points, because it'snot cheap. Innovation is not cheap within technology. But if you see the returnon investment long term, it can you can get there much, much quicker.
Rohan: Absolutely. And I saw a pretty interesting stat in[indiscernible], you know, S10 filing last year, a year before is typically, our average industrytax spend is about 3% to 4% across the board, right? And, construction industry spends about 1.5% at the moment.So you think about the gap between other industries and construction industry,there is a still a massive opportunity for software companies to come in andhelp out to create that value. The spending from the construction companies size is only going togrow and I think that's happening already. People aregetting more familiar with the tools and what technology can do for them and they're seeingthe benefit top down for sure. So the executives are buying inand leadership is buying in [indiscernible].
Gareth: Yeah. I can't [indiscernible] to that 1.5% increases to 3% because what you'regoing to find is companies are going to realize they can actually build bigger,better and safer buildings. And, they're also going to be able to build more ofthem and because you merge that technology with talent. It'sa secret recipe.
Rohan: Absolutely. And it's only going to get faster,right? I mean, you can do things faster, more efficiently. There's nothing likeit.
Gareth: Brilliant. Well, this has been brilliant, Rohan. I appreciate it. Really, really thank you for yourtime. Really looking forward to following you on Hensel Phelps, especially in innovation steam lookingforward to contributing to that. Is there anywhere in particular that that anybodylistening or anybody who wants you asked you a question, following up from this podcast, where's the bestplace to get you?
Rohan: LinkedIn or Twitter will be the best ones. RJawali is my handle. [cross talk]
Gareth: Brilliant. [cross talk] I'll get that handle off here and I'll put it on the notes below for anyonelistening.
Rohan: Sure. Absolutely.
Gareth: Rohan, have a great weekand we'll speak to you again soon.
Rohan: It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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