Gareth McGlynn: Kevin Waddell, welcome to the Preconstruction podcast.
Kevin Waddell: Thanks, Gareth. It's great to be here excited to join your talk today.
Gareth: Wonderful and we've got fresh meat. This is your debut, your podcast debut. I love it.
Kevin: I love it. Let's do this.
Gareth: I'll go easy. Cool. Well, not only is it your debut, you are our first water/wastewater guest on the Preconstruction podcast. So I can't wait to get into this. We're not going to waste any time because we've got so much to get through. I don't want to make it too long. We usually make our our podcasts between 45, 50 minutes. Just nice enough for a run or a walk at the weekend for the guests. So, why are we here now, let's hear a bio from yourself. Where are you at right now? What are you working on? What's your position?
Kevin: Yeah. So I'm with Burns & McDonnell. I manage our preconstruction and estimating for what we call the Water Global Practice. So Burns & McDonnell is a an engineering and construction firm. We're over 10,000 people worldwide now. Over four billion approaching five billion dollars in business and believe it or not, most people know us as an engineer, but over half that revenue is actually in construction of all types. We have a very large construction group here at Burns & McDonnell. A thousand people strong now and growing. We have 65, almost 70 estimators in the company now, which is a lot, right? And those estimators are all focused on our different, what we call, global practices. So my group, myself and my group, we focus on the water/wastewater and heavy civil infrastructure. And then we've got people that focus on oil, gas, chemical, energy, including solar, what we call our global facilities, which is a lot of federal work. We have aviation transportation. So we run the gamut of what we support from preconstruction and estimating. But my group, my focus is water/wastewater facilities of all types.
Gareth: Brilliant: Burns & McDonnell has taken over the construction world by the sounds of it. I love it. I mean, it's a great advantage to have so many practices in house. I mean, it makes design-build so much easier.
Kevin: It does and what it allows us to do is pivot, you know, when oil prices tanked, or oil, gas, chemical groups slowed down, of course, right? But other things like water/wastewater picked up, solar has picked up. So even though you may have one facet of the group slow down, there's always another at least one, two, usually three or four that are on the rise accelerating. So it's a great balance and it allows us to be flexible with our people, in keeping the people employed and give people the opportunity to work on different things.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it. So let's focus now on water/wastewater. You graduated from the University of Kansas, Civil Engineering. Take us back. Were you always going to be a civil engineer or what was the reason for getting into it?
Kevin: All right, Gareth. So I actually started out pursuing chemical engineering and I found out that I just was not a brainiac. Chemical Engineering was tough for me. I had a lot of trouble with organic chemistry. So honestly, I made a pivot. I've always been kind of a people person, I felt, and growing up, I loved, believe or not, as a little kid in my small hometown, I was actually born in Illinois, but moved to Kansas City at a very young age but Kansas is my home. But in my small hometown during the summers, I would follow and track the local public works road crew. And my uncle and I, who was only a few years older than me, we would ride our bikes and we would watch the pavers go fix potholes and pave the roads in our small town do the maintenance work. And I've always fascinated with heavy civil construction. And so once I realized chemical engineering wasn't for me, I pivoted to civil and it's the rest of the story.
Gareth: Brilliant. It's a great story. It's amazing, isn't it, what we see and what we're exposed to when we're really young. It really does stay with you. And I think we'll go on to it later about the SkillsUSA and about getting people into to all these blue collar work right now. That will stay with people and they will then have an idea of choosing that ahead of university when they get to that time in their life. So, obviously civil engineer, when did the penny drop on the water/wastewater? When did you turn around and go, “You know what? This is what I'm going to specialize in.”
Kevin: Yeah, so I was hired as a young engineer with a small midsize firm in the Kansas City area that was growing their water/wastewater group. I originally started out designing pump stations, interceptor sewers, and then eventually, after just a couple of years, got put in charge of their resident project representatives, basically the inspectors. We don't call them inspectors. You're going to US, we call them RPRs. But I got put in charge of our small group of RPRs and was also responsible for starting to put together the bid documents to put out on the street for the jobs we were designing. Right? And then as part of that, I was tasked with figuring out what that project was going to cost. Well, here I am, a young engineer, I've never built anything, right? And so my first foray into estimating was about two years into my career, I started literally just picking up the phone and calling local utility contractors and trying to gauge what it took to put a 48-inch interceptor sewer pipe in the ground, you know, 30 foot deep and rock. And just started reaching out and gathering that data, gathering that knowledge, and then as I got an opportunity to go see the jobs being built, once we once we bid those projects and contractors were awarded them, they started constructing. I was able to go out and see. I got to know some local contractors and then got an opportunity to go on that construction side with a small family-owned utility contractor. And I've been on the construction side ever since.
Gareth: Brilliant. And Kevin, how important was that opportunity to go on the operation side?
Kevin: For me, it’s very important because I found, you know, again, I love to build stuff and I love estimating. So I loved to try to figure out what something was going to cost and the best mousetrap to go build that project and try to be try to win it, win it the right way. And then go successfully execute it. So early in my career, I would estimate and then build what I estimated, which is I think, a pattern for a lot of young estimators, especially in the utility construction world.
Gareth: Absolutely. I think in any work, no matter what it is, it's a most-- a lot of people and a lot of companies are doing it now as well. Listen, a lot of people are under a pump right now. They might have projects they’re estimating and then getting out the door on a weekly basis. Some of them are not allowing these guys to go out and [indiscernible] to go out and have a look at what they're estimating and how it's been put together, but the really good ones. To me, if you talk to people yourself, the C-Suite, the real, real senior people within these best companies, they've all gone through it. They've all gone through operations of four or five years. It's just so important.
Kevin: I totally agree. You have to get some field experience at some point, right? Whether it's as a field engineer, a project engineer, PM for a construction company, whatever that path for you is you have to go out and see things being built, not just for construction but, if you're an engineer, to be a good engineer as well, right? How can you design something if you have no idea how it's going to get built? So we tell our young folks all the time, not only construction side, but the young engineers that come through our doors. When you get a chance to go out in the field and see stuff and spend time on a project do it.
Gareth: Brilliant. Yeah. So talk to me now about water/wastewater. Obviously, that was your first kind of project. You got to do it, you got to estimate it, you got to deliver it. How has that developed now? How, from then to now, how has water/wastewater evolved? You've obviously been a big part of it with Burns & McDonnell. What was what's been the most exciting part of that?
Kevin: I think the growth of our industry. The amount of size of these projects, it's just getting-- it's incredible how these projects are getting so big. Twenty years ago, we thought a 15 or $20 million project was big now. Right now we're talking 150, $200 million projects are out there on the street every week. So I think it's exciting to see how the industry has grown. But it's also exciting to see that the municipalities that are in the United States especially, and I'm sure it's same way in in Europe, they're starting to understand, “Hey, we have to invest our infrastructure for years and years and years.” It was all about social programs, social services, which are very important. Don't get me wrong. That's where tax dollars were spent and cities did not allocate and put money in a savings account. Right? For me. If they had done that much like a 401(k). If they put that money aside and just started saving for a rainy day, we would not be in the perils [indiscernible] country today. But it's just exciting to see things starting to happen in the growth for industry.
Gareth: Yeah, I mean-- listen, it's brilliant but there is a kind of-- with that, if you delay it and delay it and delay it, and then all of a sudden, you need to do multiple $200 million projects. It really does. It's a strain on resources. Do you see that now? Has there been a build up to these big projects or has it just been someone turn it on a tap?
Kevin: No, I think it's been a slow buildup. Well, I shouldn't say slow buildup. I think it's been kind of a rapid buildup. That hasn't been in a snap of a finger either. And I think with the release, as you're well aware, of the money from the infrastructure [indiscernible] in the United States, and the American Resource Recovery Act money, the ARPA funds and all that, you know, everybody's clamoring for the money. Everybody's trying to get in position to ascertain some type of funding to help them with the cost of their projects because they put off the maintenance for so long. Now, it's not just a small repair. It's a complete upgrade, complete rebuild of a process or a piece of the plan. And that's what's driving the cost of these projects up. Not necessarily-- of course inflation has something to do with that but the size of these projects is stemming from the fact that it's all been deferred maintenance for so many years. And now they can't defer anymore. It’s one big project.
Gareth: Yeah, absolutely. And listen, it'll be incredible once it's all complete, and we can start reaping the rewards of it. But what is the difference for a small maintenance, $20 million maintenance job to your $200 million kind of, as you say, refurb? What are the biggest challenges? Because I'm sure they're they're quite different in their complexity.
Kevin: [Inaudible] right? The larger the project, the more people you need to execute it. So not only from a preconstruction estimating standpoint, but also from from the operation side. So the biggest challenge right now is people and I think that's why you're starting to see and have seen for the last, let's say, three, four or five years, you're starting to see larger companies even like ourselves, partnering with another larger company, like, we do a lot of work and will JV a lot with the Garney Construction in the world, right? We’ll JV a lot with Alberici, another very large contractor in the US. So, I think companies realize these projects are getting so complex, so large that one entity alone can't tackle these, right? You have to have a team of people, an integrated team, to go out and tackle these mega projects.
Gareth: Yeah, absolutely. And that takes smarts to be able to do that. Because I mean, you know yourself, you're doing 20, 30, 40 million dollar projects and somebody puts a $200 million dollar. All you're seeing is the profit on that. And it's just not, it's not-- you're probably going to cause more damage by trying to take on a $200 million project when you haven't got the resources. So it's better to JV it to get it done properly and move on and get, as you say, there's enough in the pie for everyone. How important has it been the JVs because one of the things within preconstruction that I'm shooting for all the time is the sharing of of knowledge, the sharing of data, the sharing of technology, just basically the sharing of success stories so that everyone can build it to the best of their ability. Are you finding that with your JV partners?
Kevin: Yeah, we're taking the best-athlete approach. So for example, we are currently in a JV with Albarici in Wichita, Kansas for the second largest, currently the second largest water/wastewater design-build project in the United States, it's the Wichita Northwest Water Treatment Plant project. It's a $500 million 120 MGD Water Treatment Plant to serve the city of Wichita in the future and we took the best-athlete approach. So although, you know, Albarici is more known as a contractor and we're usually more known as an engineer, the top box on that project, the top PM is Burns & McDonnell Construction PM. So Albarici, you know, looked at their bench, we looked at our bench, and then we got together and collectively decided, “Hey, who's got the best athlete for this position”, and just went down the line and assigned it that way. So far it's working great.
Gareth: Brilliant. I’m delighted to hear that. That's the best way to do it. There's no egos, there's just who's the best people to do this job. Let's get it done. Let's do it successfully. Get everyone home safely, and take the profits. It's funny, maybe you can discuss this as well, [indiscernible] but how does the JV work out in relation to money? Is it like, obviously a 500 million I mean, how does that-- could it be broken down as a per person or what way does it work? You probably don't know the…
Kevin: I’m sorry, what? You’re asked me a different way I didn't quite understand the question.
Gareth: Yeah. The the profit of the-- so say 500 million. Let’s say it’s 10% profit to 50 million. How does that get divvied up? Is that all the finance departments that look after that?
Kevin: Yeah, yeah. But I believe we're in a 50-50 JV down there.
Gareth: So nice.
Kevin: So, everything's a 50-50 split.
Gareth: Yeah, that's easy. That's easy. I was always-- I'm always interested in that how complicated, I guess. But that's easy. That makes it-- that makes it very simple.
Kevin: It can get complicated because there are some partners out there or potential partners that really just can't handle being less than the majority, or even an equal partner. They have to be that 51 or 52 and we generally don't do it that way. We generally try to have a 50-50 and build what we call a JV Management Team. Right? An then executive JV team that kind of oversees and makes decisions as a whole for the JV.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it.
Kevin: It seems it worked for us.
Gareth: Yeah. Brilliant. Love it. And then obviously such a large project in Wichita. What about subcontractors? How have you find that? Has there been plenty of interest in it? Obviously, it's a huge project. So everybody want to get involved in it. But how easy has it been?
Kevin: I wouldn't say easy, but it hasn't been entirely difficult. So Wichita has a program called the Emerging Business Enterprises, EBEs and they’re basically small businesses, right? And you have to have so many-- so much participation. So we've gone to Wichita and the surrounding geographical area, and solicited those types of businesses. But the big thing for us was there are a handful of mid sized, very strategic and important contractors in Wichita and we've actually went out and kind of brought them on as what we call a dedicated subcontractor, if you will, and there's three of them that all have water/wastewater experience. So, those three contractors are kind of acting as our second tier major subs, if you will. And then a lot of the other work has been subcontracted through them down downstream. So, by doing that, we're able to package the project and build chunks at a time and say, “Okay, UCI, you go build this part of the plant while Wildcat you build this part of the plan and Dondlinger or you go build this part of the plan.” It helps speed up schedule, speed up progress, but also diversifies the workforce and gives you the opportunity to get the people you need to go build something so massive.
Gareth: Brilliant. And was that decision made on the design side or precon? What stage of the project was that decided?
Kevin: Precon, yeah. Late design, early precon as the precon team was starting to get engaged. We actually budgeted this project, what we would call a 5% design. It was very high level conceptual design and the city was trying to acquire WIFIA funds here in the US [inaudible] switches to the EPA with [indiscernible] loan. In order to do that, they had to get their application applied early and so in order to do that, we had to be able to tell him with a reasonable amount of certainty how much that project cost was going to cost and be fairly accurate at a 5% design. We brought those subs on early, those three key subs to help us with that precon estimating process so we can ensure the number we are giving the city to go get their funding was accurate based on geographic conditions.
Gareth: Wow. Kevin, I want to see- When is it due to complete that project? I want to see if you're within 5%.
Kevin: It's about 50%, 60% complete. We started a couple years ago. So, [crosstalk] [inaudible]
Gareth: Do you mind-- are we on track?
Kevin: We're on track?
Gareth: Yes.
Kevin: We're on track.
Gareth: I tell you what, Kevin. Five percent, so that's tight.
Kevin: That's a conceptual design. Right? That's a handful of drawings and boxes on paper. We had a- I was not that involved with that project that came on at the tail end. That's when I hired on to Burns & McDonnell. So I helped with some of the late validating of the estimate. So the early precon team was not really myself. But the people that were involved from Alberici and ourselves were fantastic.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it. I love hearing that. And I love hearing that the collaboration and the teamwork. I mean, we'll talk about it all day. I mean, you mentioned a couple of references at this sport. There's no point in having having a team full of Tom Bradys. It just doesn't work. You need to have so much more diversity. If you can get that from both companies and joint venture then so be it. Talk to me now, what's your-- you're obviously now the manager of estimating and preconstruction. Talk to us about your biggest pains, your biggest-- first of all, before going to pains, talk to us about a few success stories. What would you recommend people in your position or people stepping into a position similar to yourself? What do you recommend that they do and what have you seen an experience to be, “You know what? That was really key in my success.”
Kevin: Collaborate. I know we hear that term a lot now, right? It's kind of thrown-- it rolls off the tongue a lot, but collaborate, don't put yourself in a box and close the doors. Talk to the people, work with people, work with your operations side. We're trying to grow a water/wastewater and estimating precon group here. I came on board almost three years ago to start that process and we're starting to grow and add people. But early on, I didn't have a lot of support in estimating. So I had to rely on the operations guys that were already here, and their knowledge and expertise to try to help win some of those early projects and kickstart this thing. So I think collaboration is very key. And also, you know, you gotta have some drive. You've got to be dedicated. You've got to be willing to put the work in and put the hours in. It's not easy. And there's times when you're going to work a lot of hours, but there's also those times when you get an opportunity to maybe take some time off, you know, kind of off the books, if you will, and go enjoy yourself. So collaboration and dedication, I think, are the two keys for me.
Gareth: Brilliant. Yeah, I get that a lot. I mean collaboration, open mindedness, to be able to turn around and say, “Right. These team members as strong as this, let's give them that piece of work.” But collaboration is key and and obviously you guys are doing it with the JV. And then we talked about, briefly before we came on air there, we talked about challenges right now, Kevin. They're all pretty evident out there. It's pretty common knowledge that the fluctuated prices and that the economy is not as easy for estimators and precon folks right now. Are you finding the same thing and then how you you mitigate the risk of these fluctuating prices?
Kevin: Yeah, it's a difficult time for estimators especially, you know, estimators are prideful people, right? They want to be right. We want to be right. We take pride in that, but it's hard to be right in today's world
because things are fluctuating and changing so fast. You may think something cost X one day and then two weeks later costs Y. So, you know, the lead times on on the equipment and materials, the procurement part piece of that's very difficult to pin down and with the pricing, although we're starting to see a little bit of leveling off on the pricing side of it, but the lead time procurement deliveries of things are just still unbelievable on some things. So, that's been very difficult. And for us, as far as trying to mitigate that risk, we're really having some success in working with our clients to help identify where we think those potential cost risks are, what the materials are. Looking back over the last six months, 12 months, trying to see what that escalation curve has been based on several different publications and indices that we look at. And then working out a potential allowance, you know, and by that, I mean, we've been telling our owner, “Hey, look. We think this is a risk. We think this is the value of that risk. It may not happen. If it doesn't, you should have this bucket of money on your side of the fence, right? Because if you don't need to spend it, then you don't spend it and you save another if you leave it with us, it's just gonna go to our bottom line.” Right? And a lot of our owners are very, very appreciative of that honesty and upfront work and it's been working really well. We've had a couple of instances where we've had to dip into it a little bit but in the majority of the instances, we're able to save our clients money in the long haul by having them share that risk with us on certain things.
Gareth: Collaboration, love it. And then are there any materials in particular right now, you mentioned that there's there's a few that are leveling out? What are you seeing in the market right now and what are the big ones that you would like a little bit more consistency from?
Kevin: Electrical gear is still very expensive and very long lead times. Ductile iron pipe, we're hearing now, although pricing is selling down a little bit, we're hearing now it could be anywhere for up to a year a little longer just to get ductile iron pipe after you make an order. We just heard that this week. So we're trying to run that trap down and see how much validity there is to that. But one of our local pipe suppliers here in the Kansas area told us it's 60 weeks on new ductile iron pipe orders through them. So, we're trying to get with some of the larger supply houses and some of the larger companies here in the US that deal with this and see how much truth there is to that.
Gareth: Wow. I hope to God that that's not true.
Kevin: That will slow down some projects that’s for sure.
Gareth: That's incredible. And then what about, you mentioned there the risk and the curves in that historical data. Is there any technology that you guys, in preconstruction technologies, that you guys use on a day-to-day basis, and that's helping you with this?
Kevin: Maybe not technology, but publications for sure. We lean heavily on ENR. We lean heavily on the Turner Index as well. And then there's also, what's the name slipping me now, we get a quarterly report. That's an international report that shows trends over the last six months, and then for the projected for the future six months. But we tried a lot, we tried to be very careful using those longer indices right now, because we have seen such big spikes, right? I mean, you've seen it. It's big spikes in costs in short amount of times. And so, those year-long indices that we used to rely on four or five years ago, aren't capturing those quick little one-month, two-month spikes that are so critical when you're working on an estimate [indiscernible] the client in 30 days.
Gareth: Yeah, a hundred percent. Do you think some of them might be seasonal? Would you see that?
Kevin: Traditionally, it has. You know, traditionally, like PVC pipe has always, over the last 25 years, has always taken a little bump in April. Right? That’s just what's happened. So yeah, there is some of that seasonality to it. What we --
Gareth: At most, were subcontractors getting the money in for their holidays?
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.
Gareth: We see that as well. The commercial ground up stuff. They're seeing more and more seasonal spikes and dips than usual, especially over the last three or four years, obviously. COVID has been can't really, count the last year, year and a half, but it's had its own problems. But it's just amazing that we've come through so much, I think and we're still plowing ahead and we're still being consistent. There hasn't really been a huge depth and curve with the work, which is good. I thought post COVID, I know we're still in COVID, but post coming out of the real bad COVID, I thought everyone was just going to be snowed under and we're going to get a serious amount of projects expected to be built within two or three years but it's been quite consistent.
Kevin: It really has and for us, you know, we saw some of our markets took a hit, but in reality, we kept hiring during COVID. We were trying to find people because we were still growing and still executing very important projects. And so for us, it's been a steady, steady incline in growth, even through COVID. And, you know, we all work from home for several months and some longer, right? We came back in a staged process. So, there were some people that came back very early. And then a few months later, a few more people and then finally, I don't think it was until about a year ago, maybe a little longer, maybe a little shorter. I mean, maybe late last year, early this year, we came fully back to the office, fully staffed here back in the office. But yeah, COVID definitely changed things a lot for us, you know. We are able to do this now. Before, we weren't doing a lot of this, right? The video talking, video meetings and now it seems like it's an every hour occurrence. [Crosstalk]
Gareth: You spend my life on Zoom at the moment. It's crazy. Listen, just to bring it back, you mentioned at the start of the recording here, you're a people's person. I mean to me, preconstruction and estimate, yes, it's about the numbers. Yes, it's about getting the the bids exactly as they should be. But it's a real people's game right now because whether you're dealing subs, architects, designers, owners, if you can't convince someone or update someone, and the person doesn't like doing business with you, over the phone or [indiscernible] face to face, it really is-- it's becoming more of a people's gain in preconstruction because there's so much information that needs to be exchanged. And you got to be open and honest about it.
Kevin: Absolutely. We have a technique or system, I guess you want to call, we like to present all of our stuff in person, right? We don't want to send an estimate over and then three days later, go talk to the client about it, because it gives the client three days to stew over it or get mad over it or, you know, are asked to come up with 1000 different questions. Where as you go and sit down with them in person, and you talk them through the estimate, and you explain how it's built up, why it's built up this way. You walk through the set of plans at the same time with them. They have a much cleaner, better understanding of your approach, your methodology and the cost of the project instead of you know, they're expecting a $10 million job and you send them a $12 million estimate, and they get to stew over it, right? So we go talk to them. Yeah, no, it's so important. People skills are so important. Being able to develop and then convey present your information in an organized, thoughtful, understandable way is so important in our industry right now.
Gareth: Absolutely. Communication. And it comes back to what you said that you guys are all in the office now, towards the end of last year or start of this year. By having everybody in the office, in the war room, getting the best out of everyone. That is also really important. I know that people, a lot of people are pushing for remote, 100% remote estimating and preconstruction. And listen, there may be a certain space for it. But I am still a firm believer that everyone needs to be in the same office at least two or three times a week, just to get stuff on because if you've got something on your mind, you can't wait two hours for a Zoom meeting or catch your breath, something like that. You got to be able to go down the corridor and say, “Hey, Kevin, thinking about this. What do you think?” And quickly eradicate it, quickly implement it, or quickly get rid of it.
Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you-- that will be way off topic. I’ll tell you a quick story. When I first started here, I was sitting with the overall estimating group, right? Just the overall group. In the first several months, not much was happening with water/wastewater, and I finally went to the Vice President of the Water Global Practice said, “Hey, would you mind and would it be okay, if I sat in the water group here? Can you find me a spot?” He's like, “Absolutely.” And from that day forward, that marked the kickstart really of what we're doing here and design build now because of the integration and being around the people every day, they get to know you, they get to understand you, they know why you're there, right? We're there to support them. And then once they know you're there, then the real collaboration and the real growth begins. So yeah, to your point, to me, it's so important, the people aspect of our business.
Gareth: Absolutely. Kevin, this has been incredible. Thank you very much for the insight. I'm sure you do get time to sleep around all of that. But what do you do to relax? What do you do outside of work?
Kevin: I like to golf, and I do. I'm not great, but I enjoy the game of golf. I enjoy, believe it or not, enjoy home projects. I like home improvement projects, doing things around the house to make things look nicer or better. So right now my wife and I are painting the entire inside of our house so within a nice couple months we just take a little piece and do it and then move on. So--
Gareth: That's your Zen. I like it, being able to use to-- being away from it on and painting and doing it up nice. Well listen, this has been wonderful. I want to thank you for giving up your time. If there is any
one that wants to catch up with you, that you've touched on a point that they want to kind of elaborate on, where's the best place to get you.
Kevin: You can get me on LinkedIn. All my contact information are there. I respond to a lot of people all the time. So, happy to collaborate, happy to talk about the state of the market, what we're saying. I've got a blog out there that we wrote earlier this year about designing for procurement.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Kevin: And how to create early bid packages to try to help alleviate some of the cost risk, but also some of the long lead times to get stuff procured earlier. That's out there to read if you want to talk about that. I’m happy to talk about what we can do to help you with that as well.
Gareth: Brilliant. And where can you get that? Is that on LinkedIn? Have you got that on a website?
Kevin: It's on LinkedIn. It's also on Water Online Publication.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Kevin: If you if you go to the Water Online Publication site and just Google or type in designing for procurement, that blog should pop up.
Gareth: Super. What I'll do is, I'll put two links. I'll put that link and also your LinkedIn URL underneath any publications or in the show notes, and also, anyone who wants to get in touch with you. Thank you very much. This is going to be instrumental for people especially thinking about coming into preconstruction, and water and wastewater. So thanks. Thanks for your time. If there is anything else, I am definitely going to be called catching up with you to find out if that project in two years time came within 5% of the conceptual because that's fascinating.
Kevin: Yes, that'd be great. I would love to catch up.
Gareth: Good, mate. Kevin. thanks your time, sir. Talk to you soon.
Kevin: Thank you. Bye
[End]
